| snakeboy |
| | 03/12/10 at 08:04 PM | Reply with quote | #1 |
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A while back the guys who brought The Conduit to the Wii announced a new game called The Grinder, a horror-themed FPS along the lines of Left 4 Dead. At first it was scheduled to be a Wii-exclusive, but recently it was announced that the game would also be published on the Xbox 360 and PS3.
After this announcement, I'm sure many people had the same thought: "Well, I guess this will finally prove that third party games like this will sell a lot better on the PS3/360." However, something funny happened the other day. When the HD version of The Grinder was debuted, it wasn't a FPS at all. It was an overhead shooter, something kind of like Alien Syndrome.
What I found most interesting about this was the reason given for the change. Basically, it was stated that they didn't want to release a FPS for the 360/PS3 because the market was already oversaturated with them. Okay, perhaps that's true, but there's got to be a piece of the puzzle missing here, right? I mean, even with an overcrowded FPS market, that genre stills sells quite well, doesn't it? It looks like Bioshock 2 and Battlefield Bad Company 2 aren't doing too shabby. Somehow in this oversaturated market, Modern Warfare 2 managed to squeeze by with a mere 17 million units sold. Even a game like Aliens vs. Predator, which got pretty average reviews, has done pretty well.
So, what is missing here? Why don't the game's developers think that an HD version of The Grinder would sell that well on either the 360 or PS3. Hmm, I don't know, what could it be? It couldn't possibly be because they know the game really isn't that great, could it? Nah, couldn't be that.
The funny thing is that if they would have stuck to their original plan and just made an exclusive FPS for the Wii, it probably would have sold poorly, and it would have been the Wii's fault. It would have been, "Gosh darnit, us poor third parties just can't catch a break on the Wii."
Does anybody else see how ridiculous this is? Supposedly, games like The Conduit and Madworld are "groundbreaking" titles that deserve to sell millions of copies, but the Wii crowd is too dumb to know something good when they see it. If that's the case, is there a reason why, say, the Madworld developers couldn't put an HD version together and sell it on the other two consoles? I mean, the hardcore gamers who own those systems will be smart enough to see how amazing that game is, right?
I don't know a ton about the video game industry so I suppose I don't know the answer to these questions, but I thought this whole situation with The Grinder was rather amusing. |
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| feilong80 |
| | 03/12/10 at 08:52 PM | Reply with quote | #2 |
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Try not to be too hard on those guys. High Voltage Software is in a funny position in the game industry; they are in that middleground; they are obviously not small, so they don't get the indie-street cred that automatically makes critics and fans overlook flaws and appreciate your games strong points, nor do they get the rock star status of Valve, Epic, BioWare, and Infinity Ward (despite IW's tough times).
Middle of the road guys like HVS have to fight and scrape to get any respect at all. They are taking a big risk even trying to make games like the Conduit. I really appreciated their attempt, I really did. When I played the game, there was an obvious eye for detail that belied a strong effort, but also a sort of rudimentary design that also hinted that they are new at making AAA games.
I can relate, because my company, Vicious Cycle, has kept itself strong in terms of stability (which I greatly, greatly appreciate in these tough times) by building a reputation for getting games out the door, and being reliable. We are similar companies in many ways. Every developer wants to make terrific, mindblowing AAA experiences, and believe it or not most of those devs, in my view, actually have the talent to do it. But they usually never get in the position in terms of money and time.
High Voltage has decided to roll the dice and make these games that attempt to approach what the bigger boys do, and since they aren't a tinny cute lil' indie there is a sort of blow back against them, which I don't think is completely fair. I don't think anything about the HD console versions of the Grinder necessarily means that the Wii Grinder isn't going to be good. Logic dictates that lessons learned from The Conduit will apply here and they will do an even better job.
The Wii market is funny. Just Dance is now a huge, huge, hit, which really tells you that something is up here. To me, we need to see how Red Steel 2 manages at the end of the month. If it fails to sell well, then I really think we can conclude that the Wii market just doesn't have room the "gamer's games" (my own rough term, which some people may not like).
-Rob
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| snakeboy |
| | 03/12/10 at 11:34 PM | Reply with quote | #3 |
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Though I stick by the overall point of my post, I will admit that I was a bit harsh on High Voltage. Even though I didn't particularly care for The Conduit, it certainly wasn't the worst game in the world. Just the fact that it had an excellent control scheme and above average graphics at least demonstrates that they put forth an effort, and I can appreciate that. In many ways it was probably more of an effort than some of the bigger developers have made on the Wii. And I do admit that as a fan of Alien Syndrome, the top-down Grinder for the PS3/360 does look like it has potential to be the sort of game I could get into.
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| snakeboy |
| | 03/13/10 at 12:21 AM | Reply with quote | #4 |
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Rob, I just wanted to add that I appreciate your response, and your insights as someone who works within the industry are certainly helpful.
I also wanted to ask you a question: If you worked for High Voltage and worked on The Conduit, would you have been disappointed in its sales? According to vgchartz.com, it has sold almost 400,000 copies. Is that an extraordinarily low total for this type of game? I imagine that making the game wasn't cheap, but I assume they weren't working with a Call of Duty budget either. I realize that you wouldn't know the answer to this question with 100% certainty, but would you be able to make an educated guess as to whether or not the game actually made money?
I just get this feeling that people (especially Sega) got their hopes up too high as far as how well this game would sell. I think that since there wasn't a lot of FPS's on the Wii, Sega was assuming that a lot of people were clamoring for one and that this game would fly off the shelf.
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| steer |
| | 03/13/10 at 04:56 AM | Reply with quote | #5 |
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It is funny that I, as an unbiased buyer of quality games,am supposed to make 'concessions' on quality because of the devs.Who cares about my hard earned money, and my hard earned time,it is my job to level the playing field and enact gaming affirmative action :
-If it is a mediocre game maker like HVS, concessions are allowed because they are a medium sized studio, fighting for 'respect'. So if they bite of epic games that they cannot chew, I live with it. I love with it, maybe, I look to the future.
-If it is an indie game maker on a digital platform, I make concessions on game size, game ownership, game length, and overall quality. Who cares if they would just as soon put their games out on i-phone and skip retail releases for game consoles I paid good money for like Wii and DS. I show commitment by buying a game console that does nothing but play games, they reward that commitment by making games for telephones. So if I buy them, I help erode console gaming. YAY!
I also just have to say, I am way past the point of caring about this silly hardcore/casual argument. I mean, Rob, you are cherry picking games here! Again! Now Red Steel 2 is the 'next litmus'for Wii? Again? Another litmus?
I guess I do not buy 'gamer's games' then. Because I have no interest in the sequel, and I listed Red Steel back on EBAY the same day I bought it (bought on EBAY, used). Red Steel 2 looks really, really dumb. Like a mix of brain dead action movie and some kind of goth teen fantasy fanfic.
Of course, some way, some how, Zelda Wii will find an audience this Christmas. Who knows why, it is totally random, on how the casual,ignorant Wii audience -(who settled for gimmic controls on a gimped console that did not dig a multi-billion dollar hole in Nintendo's balance sheet)- will some how pony up for the motion plus required Zelda title.
I don't know why.
Only casual gamers own Wii's, so its not like the Core audience is there to recognize and care about the Zelda franchise. The Core have all left Wii, cause they can get better looking games like Bayonetta, God Of War, and even 3 Dot Hero's 'homage' game for their systems. Their game libraries are so deep and awesome they have no reason to care about Zelda. Or Nintendo - to hell with Nintendo.
They abandoned Nintendo and their casual dreck, because Nintendo abandoned them with tech demos like Wii Sports. They abandoned Wii, Wii is for kids and casuals and soccer moms who buy games like Lets Dance. Nintendo is lazy, and they do not care.
But someway, somehow, soccer moms and grandmas will put down their waggle wands and step off their balance boards they bought on Home Shopping Network, will trek to Wal Mart or boot up Amazon, and buy that silly Zelda game. It will sell millions. It may even outsell Lets Dance, or even Wii Music. Maybe.
In my humble opinion their money would be much better spent on a Project Natal experience, you can have the whole pie now on that system. They just do everything. My marketer told me so.
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| snakeboy |
| | 03/13/10 at 07:22 AM | Reply with quote | #6 |
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Steer, I certainly agree with some of your points, though my thinking isn't quite as extreme as yours. Personally, I am actually pretty interested in Red Steel 2. I wouldn't pre-judge the game based on the original since that game was clearly rushed for the Wii launch. Maybe Red Steel 2 will suck, maybe it won't. I have actually played some good third party games on the Wii, so I don't think it's a forgone conclusion that it will be terrible. And perhaps The Grinder won't suck either. Once again, I don't want to judge the game before it ever comes out, but the fact that they completely changed the game for the 360 and PS3 isn't a good sign in my opinion.
As far as game sales are concerned, aren't third parties in large part responsible for their own misfortunes? Let's say that we set up a display with all the third party titles and a display with all Nintendo titles. Haters can say all they want about Nintendo, but nobody can deny that the Nintendo display would have a much, much higher percentage of quality titles. And if you are the average Wii owner, who doesn't spend half their day reading about video games, who do you think they are going to trust when buying a new game? For them finding a good third party game is like finding a needle in a haystack.
I actually think that third parties cutting back on their Wii games could potentially be a good thing. I would rather them put more time and effort into a couple of Wii games a year instead of rushing 10 mediocre ones out the door.
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| JustLikeHeaven |
| | 03/13/10 at 09:23 AM | Reply with quote | #7 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by snakeboy
After this announcement, I'm sure many people had the same thought: "Well, I guess this will finally prove that third party games like this will sell a lot better on the PS3/360." However, something funny happened the other day. When the HD version of The Grinder was debuted, it wasn't a FPS at all. It was an overhead shooter, something kind of like Alien Syndrome.
What I found most interesting about this was the reason given for the change. Basically, it was stated that they didn't want to release a FPS for the 360/PS3 because the market was already oversaturated with them. Okay, perhaps that's true, but there's got to be a piece of the puzzle missing here, right? I mean, even with an overcrowded FPS market, that genre stills sells quite well, doesn't it? It looks like Bioshock 2 and Battlefield Bad Company 2 aren't doing too shabby. Somehow in this oversaturated market, Modern Warfare 2 managed to squeeze by with a mere 17 million units sold. Even a game like Aliens vs. Predator, which got pretty average reviews, has done pretty well.
So, what is missing here? Why don't the game's developers think that an HD version of The Grinder would sell that well on either the 360 or PS3. Hmm, I don't know, what could it be? It couldn't possibly be because they know the game really isn't that great, could it? Nah, couldn't be that.
If you look at original IP FPSs on the 360/PS3 how many of them end up selling well or being very memorable? Sure some of them might be good games, but they certainly aren't going to be the stuff that gamers demand more of. Here is a small sample of games that I can think of that have faded into FPS obsucurity on the 360/ps3:
1. Legendary
2. Turning Point: Fall of Liberty
3. Clive Barker's Jericho
4. Blacksite: Area 51
5. ShellShock 2: Blood Trails
6. Conflict: Denied Ops
7. Rogue Warrior
Like I said...I'm not condemning these games...some of them might be pretty good, but hardly any of them made a big enough splash to be noticed. I think The Grinder had a pretty cool premise and I was excited when it was first announced, but I have to admit I'm much more willing to try out the PS3/360 version now that it isn't a FPS. I'm hoping its something along the lines of Hunter the Reckoning or a darker Zombies Ate My Neighbors. Needless to say it is something different and it is now on my radar.
Just my 2 cents...
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| Pixelcade |
| | 03/13/10 at 10:08 AM | Reply with quote | #8 |
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Can someone PLEASE define hardcore gamer and casual gamer? These terms have been tossed around over and over and I have yet to figure out what they mean.
Here classify me:
I play games hours upon hours a week. Be it from Coleco up to my Wii, my PC and my Mame Cabinet I built. Does that not make me a hardcore gamer? I have chosen long ago NOT to support Sony or MS. Even now I can get most of the games that I may even want to try on the PC (not many) which will look better and perform better. I've been playing games for close to 30 years. I'm now teaching my 3 year old about games thus passing the knowledge.
But because I own a Wii and only a Wii does that make me a casual gamer? I'm not a soccer mom last time I checked and I didn't buy it on TV. I'm soooo confused someone straighten this coot out with what these terms mean. I wanna be in the hardcore gaming club to damn it! It sounds so cool HARDCOORRREEEEE GAMER!!!!
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| Josh |
| | 03/13/10 at 10:34 AM | Reply with quote | #9 |
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@Pixlecade,
Hardcore gamer= no sleep, no social life, goes throughs games like a crackhead does crack, cynical, vulgar, loves to participate in fanboy flaming, thinks that first person shooters are the all in all of gaming, thinks 2d is for old people
Casual gamer= plays games as time allows, is a responsible person that understands that games are entertainment and therefore must not take precedence over family, friends, job, etc. Loves games that can be played with family and friends. Loves games that are actually fun, no matter what dimension they are in.
I got back into gaming a few years ago and after reading various gaming sites this would be my definition. I fall in the latter.
By the way Pixlecade, I am a dad of a six year old and we've been playing tother since he was around four. Play one of the Lego Star Wars with him - he'll love it. Hey, you can't die in it.
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| snakeboy |
| | 03/13/10 at 10:48 AM | Reply with quote | #10 |
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Okay, JLH, you make some excellent points that had never occurred to me, however, most of those games you mentioned got some pretty awful reviews. I think that a lot of PS3 and 360 owners base a good number of their purchases on review scores, and if a game has a score of 45% on gamerankings, they won't buy it. I believe that if The Grinder was a good game that got solid review scores, it would sell well enough to justify releasing it on the PS3 and 360. But I have a feeling it probably is more on par with the games you mention, which is why it wouldn't sell well and why I believe they ended up changing the game.
And why is it that the "new IP from a smaller developer" argument is a valid excuse for poor sales on the PS3/360 but not on the Wii? So if The Conduit doesn't sell well on the Wii, it's because Wii owners aren't smart enough to know a good title when they see it, but if a similar game doesn't sell well on the the PS3 and 360, it's because it's a new IP from a smaller developer that goes unnoticed. I'm not saying that you necessarily believe this, JLH, but I do think it is the mindset that a lot of people have.
And Pixelcade, to me the difference between a hardcore and casual gamer has to do with the amount of time you spend playing games. If you spend an hour or two a day playing, you are a hardcore gamer. If you maybe spend an hour a week, you are a casual gamer. Unfortunately, those terms have been twisted and now seem to be defined by what types of games you play, which is stupid.
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| Pixelcade |
| | 03/13/10 at 12:13 PM | Reply with quote | #11 |
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Josh,
We have Star Wars Lego on GC he LOVES to watch and loves to run around in the cantina shooting everything. He doesn't get it but he sure loves it!
Thanks for clearing this matter up. Now I'm going to go jack that RF cord into my ear and see if that gives me the Hard Core vibe.
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| feilong80 |
| | 03/13/10 at 02:38 PM | Reply with quote | #12 |
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wow Steer, I wasn't expecting to get all of that in response. I wasn't making any argument whatsoever about what to buy. I was only trying to say that the developers themselves aren't sitting around consciously desiring to make crap, as well as describe, very truthfully, how difficult it is to get beyond on-time and on budget and ascend to something better. It involves a lot of things, and some of them are luck and timing.
"Gamer's Game" is a loose term that roughly means playing something that conforms to the general expectations of the committed gamer. It isn't a value statement about the games themselves. "Just Dance" could be terrific in its own right. But it isn't a game meant for the typical video game enthusiast to sit down and play for 10-20 hours.
-Rob
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| N64Dude |
| | 03/13/10 at 08:09 PM | Reply with quote | #13 |
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Naw there are so many types of gamers out there
Hardcore Retro: This kind of gamer is the type of gamer that gave up when things went 3D and constantly babbles about games are too cinematic and thinks FPS's are the bane of the industry. They would if they could play something like Yar's Revenge or Battletoads like there was no tomorrow if they could. They were like Modern hardcores but gave up.
(Example: Most people on this forum)
Modern Hardcore: This type of person just wants better graphics,more violence,thinks FPS's are the greatest types of games,2D games are for homos and old people,flame those not like them,and will believe anything the media says unless it praises a casual company.
(Example: Most of my peers at school that have PS3s)
HARDCORE: This kind of gamer sticks to one game,has no life,flames others,talk of only that one game and might kill themselves playing that one game like say Starcraft or WoW if they did have moms
(Example: Some peers of mine that also play too much Magic or Dominion)
Clueless: This type of person buys games only if they are from something they like or have seen funny ads for [Think of all the soccer moms and grandmas that buy Wii or little sisters that play Nintendogs]
(Example:My sister)
Casual: This is the type of person that will explore just about any genre,but they don't spend much time and mainly buy by word of mouth and for the most part they won't put the time in to beat a game
(Example: Many of my neighbors and cousins my age)
Moderate: This is the type of person that actually reads reviews and researches before investing,they won't believe everything the media says will take some of it into consideration.They will invest a lot of time into beating game and might become a little obssesive and probably the most open to talking about video games.
(Example: Myself and a few people on this board and a few select friends)
The media is Modern Hardcore and acts like all those talk shows hosts or news pundits and bow to anything like them,grumble when the "opponent" wins see any insignificant shortcoming as a victory and then feed that to all those that follow them.All of that elite crowd is jealous and therefore see this insignificant announcement as a downfall that won't happen
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